The Jeune Maman Podcast
The Jeune Maman Podcast is an audio-journey of the intricacies of Senegalese-American motherhood. Host Aissatou Guisse reflects on her own experiences and shares those of others around her, with the goal of sharing information, imparting wisdom with the help of guest speakers, dispelling myths, and much more!
The Jeune Maman Podcast
E13: Exploring Different Parenting Styles: Senegalese Girl Dad
In this very special episode, I talk with Gora Diagne, a Jeune Papa, and get his perspective on parenthood, being a girl dad, and gender roles in the home! Enjoy!
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Hello, hello listeners, and welcome back to the Jebemore podcast, where we talk about all things pregnancy, postpartum, motherhood, tips and tricks and more from a Senegalese-American perspective. I'm your host, icy Tugisei, and in this episode we have a very, very special guest with us. We have our very first Jeun Papa on the show. My friend, gura Jany is here with us and he's going to talk to us about parenthood, being a proud girl, dad and some of the gender roles that we can have within our marriages that sometimes can hinder us more than help us. So I'm not going to keep you guys for too long, I'm going to jump straight into the interview. I hope you guys enjoy it and I will see you on the next one. Hi, gura, thank you for joining me today. I'm so excited because this is the Jeun Mama podcast, but we've never had a Jeun Papa on the show. You are the first Jeun Papa that we have as a guest on the show and I think we're going to learn a lot from you today, so I'm really excited.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Ida.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 1:So we're going to start off today with an icebreaker. So I have a game called Would you Rather? It's a parent edition, so I'm going to ask you a series of options and see which one you would rather do for you. And we're going to assume this is for a baby. That's not calm. So imagine a crying baby. For all of these scenarios. So would you rather try to calm your baby down when they are crying nonstop, or stay up all night with your baby? But you can't go to sleep if you stay up all night with them.
Speaker 2:I would rather calm them.
Speaker 1:Calm them, okay. Would you rather try to get them into a car seat or give them a bath?
Speaker 2:A bath.
Speaker 1:A bath, okay. Would you rather spend 30 minutes in the car with your baby crying nonstop, or take your baby to a doctor's appointment where they have to get shots?
Speaker 2:I would rather take her or him to a doctor and see.
Speaker 1:Okay. Would you rather pay for daycare or have your mother-in-law move in with you? You can plead the fifth.
Speaker 2:Say it again Say it again.
Speaker 1:Would you rather pay for daycare or have your mother-in-law move in with you?
Speaker 2:I would rather have my mother-in-law. She's lovely.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's good, so you don't have to plead the fifth on that one. Would you rather watch kids' cartoons all day or spend all day at the park with your baby, with them crying?
Speaker 2:Washing cartoons.
Speaker 1:Okay. Are you going to be on your computer while they watch cartoons? You can't do that. You have to wash the cartoon.
Speaker 2:No, I wash with him. Okay, anyway, I do it already.
Speaker 1:Okay, would you rather deal with a diaper blowout? So that's when they just poop everywhere or try to get your baby to go to sleep.
Speaker 2:I don't think they're asleep.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then the last one that I have for you would you rather, for the rest of your life, drink everything from a baby bottle or wear diapers you, not the baby.
Speaker 2:I know I'm doing that. Yeah, I think I'm going to drink You're going to drink.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you'll have your Yapa Tabaski inside of a baby bottle.
Speaker 2:Yes, if it's possible. Yes, I can do that. Insha'allah.
Speaker 1:Insha'Allah. Well, thank you for humoring me with those questions. Wanted to break the ice so you guys comfortable as possible when we talk about parenthood and fatherhood, because it's not easy. So I want to start off by asking you to introduce yourself to my listeners.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much again, aida, for this opportunity. My name is Gora Jain. I am from Senegal, I am a teacher and I own a school. We are teaching English and leadership for kids and adults. For now four years, I have my own school. I'm an actor, or also a model, also Awesome.
Speaker 1:Thank you. You are very pulli-valan, like they say in French, jack of all trades. We love it. All right, so, jumping into the interview, I want to start off by asking you how do you view parenthood and fatherhood overall, what have been some challenges that you faced and how do you navigate them?
Speaker 2:I'm grateful for everything and for being a father. First of all, it's not given to anyone to be a father. We know some people who are married and they cannot have babies. So I'm very grateful for having my kids, Alhamdulillah. And, to be honest, so far there is nothing really hard on the road. Alhamdulillah, Everything is enjoyed. When I'm down and I look at my kids, I'm just happy when everything is not working outside. When I get home, I just cuddle my kids, I just feel okay, Everything disappears. I would say nothing wrong. Yet nothing is a challenge to me so far, to be honest.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. I love that because I feel the same too. I feel like you put it perfectly when things outside are now going well, but you look at your kids and you just feel so thankful and grateful, so I like that. So what has been the most surprising aspect of fatherhood, though, for you? Is there anything that just caught you by surprise or you felt like you weren't ready for, but you had to learn on the job?
Speaker 2:The first day my first born daughter came, I was at the hospital. I didn't realize that I was a father actually. So when I went out to buy diapers and those first kids, I just stood out and said bro, you're father now. That's how I said it. Yeah, it was for me to call myself now a father.
Speaker 2:You know, and I'm saying it, I'm having goosebumps because that was very valuable, you know, and yeah, and then, alhamdulillah, I have a beautiful wife who is there. Whatever I need to know, she's teaching it to me and she's making it easy. Yeah, I can say so.
Speaker 1:Oh, I feel like you're just. Everything you're saying is resonating with me, because I remember when I had my daughter and then I would be like my family would be with her and she would be crying and they would say, like your mom is coming, like, say, I'm Muno, and I was like who. It took me a long time to come into the fact that I was a mom now, and so every time people say, like your mom or say I am it literally freaks me out because this human is my daughter Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and the first time the doctor just passed by me with the baby on the plate, my mom was saying. I said, mom, this is not my daughter, this thing is small and that was baby, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So were you in the delivery room when your daughters were born.
Speaker 2:The first born daughter. I was there Okay, it was this session and then they didn't allow me to be in, but the second one I attended and then I saw everything. How was?
Speaker 1:that experience.
Speaker 2:I thank God for that. I would do it again and again, just because the feeling that I have they had that day. It's totally different from any other feeling I have so far in my life Seeing the baby coming out, hearing my wife screaming, seeing how hard that delivery was hard you know how hard it was. That gave me another. You know I can say I don't know if I can use the word mercy, or more love and affection towards my wife first, and then the connection with my daughter, you know, and yeah, alhamdulillah, that was awesome, and I said Allah Akbar because that was just awesome. You know, seeing a human being coming out of another human being. I never attended that and Alhamdulillah I did. I had the chance to do it. That was awesome. And whoever is watching about father, make sure you attend that. I love more.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you. I love that I'm getting goosebumps as you're talking, because it's an emotional experience. I mean, I didn't see it from that perspective because I was on the table.
Speaker 1:But I know that a lot of partners and husbands say after that experience they saw their wives in a totally new light, because it's like labor and delivery is kind of crazy when you think about it. So a lot happens, a lot goes on and I think especially back home in Senegal not a lot of husbands are encouraged to be in the room or they don't think they have to be. But I think it does something very foundational for that bond you have with your baby if you can be there for that experience.
Speaker 2:When they ask me do you want to be inside the room, I say yes, yes, yes, I want, like without even thinking because I wasn't expecting them to call me. I came in the suitcase for her things and they asked me do you want to be in? I say yes, yes, I want to be in. And boom got into the labor room and yeah, that's awesome. For a moment I was scared because the way they were pulling the head of the baby.
Speaker 1:I said bro, Bro, why are you doing that?
Speaker 2:I used to do that, so I was just learning and I got her the first very moment she came on earth. So, just praying for her. That was beautiful yeah.
Speaker 1:I hope you experience that more and more with future children. It's a wonderful experience. I had my husband in the room and I was nervous for him because I wasn't sure if he would stay conscious for all of it, but he did. He was strong. Though you think we are strong, I mean I'm proud of him because he stayed up. He cut the umbilical cord, you know. Then afterwards, when they gave me the baby to hold, then he sat down and cried oh, masha'Allah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a beautiful experience. Yeah, masha'allah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it makes your marriage stronger. I know Senegal. They view certain things as like this is how it should be, or and that's actually going to touch on the next question that I'm going to talk about, which is gender roles and marriage. You know we think that women should do this, men should do that, but when it comes to, I think, parenthood, you both equally love that baby. You know, of course, the mom is the one who carries the baby, but when it comes down to it, I think fathers love their kids just as much as moms. And to go through nine months together I think the the height of that experience is the labor and delivery All these things you've been praying for and waiting for for nine months is finally here. Why not experience it together? I think it'll only make your bond stronger as a couple and then as a family unit too. So like.
Speaker 1:I said I'm going to touch on the next question that I have, which is gender roles. So how does that evolve as your family grows in your household?
Speaker 2:You know, we say like this, and it is very different here we used to live together alone and then after we moved to our parents' house, you know, and there we mostly don't do a lot because we have any or, as you know, we have made here, and that is. You know, she has a business, she's going to her job, I have mine and then myself, whatever she is to do, I pay somebody to do that Because I just want her to not be very tired or to have time for her business and time for kids also. Exactly so, so, so also, I sometimes a good Senegalese stereotype I don't do much. I don't do much at home, to be. I'm just going to be very frank with you. I don't do much at home, but whenever she asks for help, I'm there for that. I'm not just going to tell her oh, this is, this is your thing. You have the girl, you are the girl, you have to do it. You are the wife, you have to do it.
Speaker 2:And especially when it comes to the religion she has, she's not to do that. For me, that's not something that allows me. You know, if she has it, alhamdulillah, I have to thank her. If she doesn't, I don't have to just blame her for that. I can find a maid for that. For example, this is what the region say yeah, like it doesn't say, okay, she has to cook for you, she has to do, do, do, do, do. No, she doesn't owe it to you. If she does, so, be grateful and thank her. And if you can, if you can help, go and help, because I always see your wife as somebody, a human being, living with you. Either I wouldn't live with you as a friend and let you do everything chore of the house. Yeah, well, I help you. Yeah, why would you do that for your wife if you are alone in the house?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, very true.
Speaker 2:If you are doing some certain things, it's fine. Yeah, the person is doing that. But if you are alone in the house, help the person. And what is important is, when you help the person, you're gonna have more time together, because while she is cooking, you are doing something in the kitchen. While she is doing whatever else, you are doing something else next time and this is gonna go faster and you're gonna have more time to rest, more time to do whatever you wanna do after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is how.
Speaker 2:I say things yeah.
Speaker 1:No, it's very true. I think a lot of people don't realize that by actually partaking in the household chores you're alleviating some work for your wife, like you said. Then you have more time together. But I think in our culture what we tend to do is just assume that women are superhuman, and as much as we'd like to be superhuman, we're not. We're just human and we get tired too, and there's only 24 hours in a day, the same 24 hours that you know men have. So I think to say that you have to do everything and you should never be tired, you should never complain, you should never ask for help is unrealistic. But I could go on a whole tangent on that if I start, so I'm gonna stop and move on to the next question.
Speaker 1:And maybe you've already answered this one with your last answer, but it's really about being in Senegal. What observations have you made about fatherhood that you wish were different? In like a traditional house where you have, let's say, the couple is living alone and they do have a maid?
Speaker 2:To be honest, in my, in my circle or what I have seen so far, men that I know they are that much so with their, with their wife. But yeah, we, we, we know also some people also who have some certain behavior towards their wife and they think that the girl is just a material, you know, just there to to satisfy their needs, to cook or do whatever they they have to do. And I hate that. Why? It's because, also, I understand where that comes from. It's from our houses, because when you have your sister, your father and mother, they just gotta say, okay, your sister has to do this or that for the brothers, okay, they have to cook, they have to clean for them, they have to make their rooms, they have to do everything in the house for the brothers, and the brother growing up thinks that the wife you have has to be or has to do the same thing as your wife and it shouldn't be like that. That just put put you in a position where you no longer see your wife as a wife. You know, and, to be honest, that thing I understood, it later in life, I learned from, from, from some some women also, making me see that, okay, this behavior you're having is because of this, but it's not normal.
Speaker 2:And parents should be educating their daughter and their son. You know, educate your son, educate your daughter. The same way They'll just say, okay, my daughter is what? If, for example, I have two daughters at home and they grow up Like? Will I just say the one is has to do this for the, for the elder one, all the time? No, educate them. If you have a religion, try to see how good it should be raising your kids in the house, and that way will help you have a beautiful home and beautiful, you know, family, yeah and yeah. And the one thing is I would just point out is men should know that women are not mates or slaves of the house. What I mean by women is your wife, for example, you know. So consider them more and just forget about the titles. Wife and husband. You are two human beings gathered to be the peace of the other one. So just be the peace of your, of your, of your, of your partner.
Speaker 1:Dropping gems today. I like it, it's true, though it's so true. People think that, like what I've noticed in my experience is back home, a lot of marriages are transactional and it could be that maybe the love that should be there is not always there. Now, that's not for all couples. Some couples are genuinely in love, a lot of couples are genuinely in love, but I think for the, the couples that I see the most issues with and I put issues on quotes because I don't, you know, maybe it's not an issue for them, but when we talk about compassion and empathy and mercy, the couples that sometimes lack that, I think it's because they don't have a foundation of one religion. If you, if you look at what, whatever religion you follow, there are guidelines. So, whatever religion you follow, if you look at those guidelines, it will show you how to treat others with empathy, with compassion. But if you look at it like from the vanity perspective of like just pure love, couples that don't have love tend to not treat each other well.
Speaker 1:And I think, senegal, a lot of couples are married because of family ties. They're married because they should be married. They got arranged and arranged doesn't mean forced, but they got arranged and so they don't see that other person as like someone tender they should take care of or someone tender they should alleviate their life. It's like my mom made me marry you, you're my wife, so you do these things. Or my dad told me I have to come and be married to you, so I'm just going to perform my wife. We do these.
Speaker 1:So I think we have to start breaking those things down and I think our generation is doing a good job of it. Maybe we're swinging the pendulum too far where we're saying like get rid of all gender roles, but I think, if we can understand that women have certain things that are innate for them and men have certain things that are innate for them, but then overall, when you have a house, you just you just run the house. It's like a factory people clock in, clock out, you do your role and then hopefully everything goes well. But it all has to be on that basis of respect and love and you know, understanding. That's how I see it.
Speaker 2:That's good, that's good, and I couldn't say it better.
Speaker 1:Awesome, thank you. My next question for you is what is your favorite part about being a girl dad?
Speaker 2:Being playful. It shows, I mean, I have another eye in how I look at kids and how I look at the girls and you know I have always had that love for kids. That's why I started teaching with kids and my daughter is just just somebody else. My granddaughter, zeynav, I love a lot. She makes me discover things about myself. You know I'm there being a father and she reminds me that I'm growing and things are changing. You know I'm this and tomorrow I'm like that and we're always learning. You know, because it changed a lot and she grows a lot fast, you know. And just spending time with her watching some cartoons with her, hearing her having some slangs, I can say from saying like, oh, sometimes she's like what did you get this? And she's having attitudes. And now she's on that level where, whatever you say, she's mad and just say, okay, I'm mad, now I'm not gonna be mad.
Speaker 2:Okay, my mother is my friend. You are ugly, you know, she's just being a girl, she's just being whimsical and she has the right to be like that and I love that about her. The little one is just beautiful. So far, you know, no problem with her, but Zeynav, she is just there being, you know, the ruler of the house and, yeah, and it makes you softer. You know, I'm the one, I'm the punching ball. When she has something that is bothering her, she comes to me and once you want to do some things, she would. When the mom says no, she comes to me and say, mom, that mom said this and that. And I say, okay, you have to listen to your mom. But, yeah, let's do it this time and then tomorrow. You know you have to listen to your mom and that, you know, makes you have more, you know, more love, more affection to her, and that's just sometimes I, to be honest, I can just look at my daughter and just say Alhamdulillah for no reason yeah for no reason say Alhamdulillah, because she's lovely and she is.
Speaker 2:She's more like father and the mother.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna send her this interview. I'm gonna like, say, create a link and just save it for when she's like 16 and she's going through that I hate my parents face.
Speaker 2:I love her so much and I'm very proud of her, what she's doing and she loves English. You know she's just two and eight months and she loves going to my school where she's learning English now and her favorite sentence is that Papa, how do you say this in English?
Speaker 2:oh good when I tell her that thing, for example, she just, she just says um, papa Dama Burger, nellow. You know that I want to sleep and I don't know how to say sleep. I and she said Papa Dama Burger. And then she said uh, how do you say Nellow in English? I say sleep, papa Dama Burger, sleep you know she's and then she's you know, and I ask her you have to go back to school this coming October. She said I'm gonna go and learn English, you know and she's very smart.
Speaker 2:Masha Allah, I'm gonna say it and again, and again, and I hope I love it, you're proud dad you know, her mom is doing very great job. Masha Allah and um yeah, thank you so much for that. I have that. I love you girl that's amazing.
Speaker 1:Oh, zaina, your dad loves you. That's beautiful. I think it's such a nice thing to see. You know, we always hear about girl dad, girl dad. But to hear it explain in the way that you just did, um, not only are you talking about how she makes you feel, but you're acknowledging the attributes about her that you love about her. I think that's beautiful, because it takes a good dad to be able to identify those things and to be able to articulate them. So I think that's kudos to you and your wife doing such an amazing job as parents. Um, the girls are lucky to have you guys. Now, you've mentioned it a few times you mentioned in your intro, but I want to let you uh, tell my listeners about teachers with attitude. That's your, your program, your English program yeah, yeah, that's my, my academy.
Speaker 2:It is, uh, an academy of language and leadership. Why I have that, it is because that helped me in my life. I used to be a very lost person in my life. I was very shy. I couldn't, you know, do a lot of things that I'm doing today. Some of my friends, even when they see me on tv, and said this cannot be you. You know how we knew you before. This cannot be you. And Alhamdulillah, I know a lot of kids are like me, as I used to be in the past, you know, and I created the program.
Speaker 2:I have always wanted to have a school, even when I was back in high school. I wanted to have a school because I hated the way some of my teachers were teaching me and the way they were appreciating me. You know, if you have, for example, four teachers, the one can say he's bad, the other one can say he's excellent, the other one can say, oh, we have to send him out of the school, you know. And the other one can have their own appreciation about you. They, they, they couldn't see the value you had, and I used to be very good at dancing and and drawing. I thought I would become a dancer or you know, or an artist, you know drawing or whatever.
Speaker 2:But teachers couldn't just see that in me, they couldn't know how to get that thing out of me. All they know is that you have to be a student, you have to learn this and full stop. Being a good student is someone who is, who has A's, you know, or B, good at math or grammar or whatever, and that that was just growing up. I learned. I learned to be, you know, um, that person who is going to be there for those kind of kids. And in my program I created it and I and I had something I called gift and talents program in the gift and talents program, kids were doing whatever they could you know away others and considering considering them as kids.
Speaker 2:Still, whenever you are registered in my school, I tell you no matter who you are outside here, you are my student, and nobody who doesn't know anything about the subject is a kid. So I'm gonna put everything into your head and help you or I'm not gonna just even say put something in your head, but help you discover things. You know, and we have been teaching English for now four years. We have trained a lot of people, a lot of professionals, also a lot of firms. We're training their staff and I now have a school in Geyawe and in Mamos and I'm developing.
Speaker 1:I think I might have lost you. Are you still there?
Speaker 2:Can you hear me now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can hear you now. So you were saying you have a school in Geyawe and Mamos and then you're developing.
Speaker 2:And now I'm developing the Kids Academy. I'm going to be working with Mikado Friendly. We'll be having our English classes over there, inshallah, and in Domi'i, in Mamel. I'm trying to be everywhere in Dakar helping people to understand this language, because it helps people grasp the best of this word, because English is an international one that everybody needs. If you want to be doing business, you need to learn English. I have never left Senegal. I learned everything here, so people can be learning English from here and from us also. Doing the best so far, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That's a wonderful mission, and not only the fact that English is now the global language that everybody needs to know, but I think the the, the why behind your school is really important. Senegal doesn't really recognize shyness as a personality. Everybody has to be social, everybody has to be extroverted, and so for those individuals who are misunderstood or in school, for example, they're not taken into account. I think that's really really important to have a place that they can go and feel secure and feel heard and seen. I love that. I would have never guessed that you were shy, by the way.
Speaker 2:I've known you for a couple of years now, but I was very, very, very shy and somebody helped me, whose name is Barukhan. He was my coach and who is now my mentor. Back in 2011, I had a training with the US Embassy. He was our coach and, yeah, we did a lot. I'm not going to just, you know, talk about it right now, but he did a lot and he changed me. I used to have my plates. You know, as a young boy in this country, you know to take bandy and everything, but he helped me get out of that, be able to sell things in the streets. You know, hustle be where I am today and I cannot thank him more Enough. I can say I can't thank him enough and he did a lot and that helped me find myself, you know, or I can say finding myself, because we always find something about ourselves every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so thank you.
Speaker 2:Barukhan.
Speaker 1:No, I love it. We're not a monolith. I think we tend to operate as if we should be as a country, that everybody has to act a certain way, but we're very different and unique individuals. We have stories and journeys that we've gone through, and so I'm glad that you were able to speak to that, because I know it's not always encouraged. I'll just say that, yeah Well, thank you. This was an amazing, amazing interview. I used to surpassed. I didn't have expectations. I knew it was going to be great, but you've gone above and beyond that. I love hearing about your daughters and your family and I'm just so excited for the listeners to hear this because they need it. There's a lot of people who message me, gora, and they say, hey, I'm currently pregnant and your podcast is really up in me. Or they say how about the men? What do they think? You know, motherhood tends to or like parenthood instead of God tends to be a motherhood thing. Only moms are involved in that. They even, like, say so do I'm so for moms.
Speaker 1:That's what they usually do it's nice to hear from a dad who is loving and thriving in the journey of parenthood. So thank you for being here. I want to give you an opportunity to have any parting thoughts and say goodbye to my guests.
Speaker 2:I'm going to just say thank you for having me again and may Allah inspire you more. And this is just awesome. May you know it grows and until you have a lot of big audience, because people they need to hear this, you know, because this is useful. It's a useful content. Every content is useful, but this is just important. You know, this can help other people to be, to find themselves in it, you know, and see that they are alone. And this is I just encourage it because it is educational, you know, and then I love it. I love it so far, Alhamdulillah.
Speaker 2:Whatever, what else I can say is that may Allah help us understand one another. I mean, we say communication is key, but understanding is also important. We can be here talking, talking, talking, talking. If you don't understand each other, I think that's not going to go. You know, far from where we were, from where we are, Maybe we have more understanding to one another, Maybe we have pure heart, you know, I mean, maybe we just have what else can I pray for? Health? A lot of money, you know. Thank you so much for watching us. So for your friends who don't speak English, be mean, You're going to teach them Absolutely as teachers with attitude.
Speaker 1:I will be sharing the information when I put this episode out. Hit up Gora. If you were instead of God and you would like to learn English, you need to learn English, but if you.
Speaker 2:By the way, we have students everywhere. I even have some in the States, in Canada, in the UK, because we also do classes. The online platform is even bigger than the school we have here in person. Nice, I started it. I started it alone and I was teaching from Monday to Sunday, and only remote, you know we have students everywhere, so wherever you are, if you want to learn English.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. Anywhere in the world, if you want to learn English on top of the need to learn English, make sure you hit up my friend, gora, with teachers, with attitude. I'm going to have to send my husband to you, Gora. He's been here two years and sometimes he makes mistakes and I'm just like you need to learn English.
Speaker 1:He's going to kill me when he sees this. He thinks it's like he's like every day. I'm like when he's talking he'll say a sentence and I have to find the right moment to like correct him so that it's, you know, helpful and not hurtful. But I'm going to send him over to you. Thank you so much for the time. I really, really appreciate it. It may Allah bless you and your family and cover you and protect you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, say hi to the girls for me, inshaallah.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Alaykum Salam.
